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Hasn’t Any debate Friday night at Basham & Cornell Web Site / Blog


When Will Public Progressive Figures Ever Learn?
DougAboutPic2Feather.jpg by your humble host, Doug Basham
I just had the opportunity to watch the much bally-hooed debate that took place on Friday night up at the University of Utah between Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson and FOX News’ Sean Hannity.
And let me preface this article by stating unequivocally how much I love and admire Rocky Anderson. I have played many excerpts from his speeches on our radio show. Mayor Anderson is a patriotic American and a hero in every sense of the word. The link that took me to the debate on-line carried the headline, “Rocky Anderson Obliterates Sean Hannity at University of Utah Impeachment Debate.”
I’m not so sure.
This title immediately reminded me of the dejected and embarrassed husband who promised to “bang the living daylights” out of his wife, only to suffer “erectile dysfuntion” and failed to live up to his hype. His wife started hitting him over the head with a wet noodle. He asked “What are you doing?” She replied, “Comparatively speaking, I’m beating your brains in.”
Was Rocky Anderson right on all the issues? Most of them, yes. Did Sean Hannity hide behind the troops, neo-patriotism, and meaningless right wing talking points? Yes. Did Rocky Anderson win the debate? In my humble opinion, no he did not.
And if rumors are true (and let’s face it - often, they’re not - but my over-riding point is the same either way), Mayor Anderson could be heard reprimanding his staff after the debate with words to the effect of “Why didn’t you tell me Hannity would be this prepared?” Excuse me, Mr. Mayor? Sean Hannity didn’t say anything during your debate you couldn’t have culled yourself from listening to just one hour of his “You’re a great American” radio show, or one episode of his Hannity and Colmes television program.
One of my main bones of contention has always been how ill-prepared some progressives seem to be when going head to head with right wingers. But for God’s sake, it requires no preparation what so ever to know that Hannity was going to use his tired “Well, John Kerry said Saddam Hussein had WMD. Hillary Clinton said Saddam Hussein had WMD etc. etc.” canard.
That’s been one of his favorite mantras since people began awakening to the sorry reality that George W. Bush lied this nation into a deadly, unnecessary, and impeachable war. And yes, Mayor Anderson is correct. When you consider how far the bar of impeachment was lowered for Bill Clinton and how high it’s been raised for George W. Bush, it is a shameful stain on this country’s reputation and heritage that Bush was even elected (I know, I know - but that was the official result) let alone has not yet been impeached. But sometimes the truth just isn’t enough, especially when you go up against a polished spin meister who long ago abandoned the truth for talking points like Sean Hannity (or Sean Hasn’t Any, as I refer to him on the show). Perhaps what is needed in extreme circumstances like this is a crash course in progressive counter talking points.
I’d like to focus on just two problems I had with Friday’s debate – although there were more, trust me.
1) At one point, Sean accused Mayor Anderson of being “intellectually dishonest” for not calling for the resignation of the people who mimicked George W. Bush’s doomsday Iraq rhetoric - in particular - Democratic Senators Kerry and Clinton.
Unfortunately, Mayor Anderson’s response was weak and ineffectual. He said he supports those Democrats who expressed similar words to George W. Bush being held accountable as well as George W. Bush. He faulted Democrats for not reading the NIE, (National Intelligence Estimate) and he was right. Unfortunately, that response didn’t get to the heart of Hannity’s question. Mayor Anderson was presented with an opportunity to whip George W. Bush… and he chose to spank his fellow Democrats instead.
And if debater #1 (in this case, Hannity) asks debater #2 (in this case, Anderson) a question that is critical of debater #2’s fellow Democrats, and then debater #2 criticizes Democrats in his response, guess who the round goes to?
I would like to think my response would’ve been, “No Sean, what is intellectually dishonest is equating the criminal actions of George W. Bush with the perhaps careless words of others - words that in many cases, were uttered on the basis of ‘Enroned’ intelligence from the Bush administration. Applying your flawed logic, I would be just as guilty for saying I wished someone were dead, as I would be if I actually killed them. Many of those people’s biggest crime was believing what their president told them.
So at the end of the day, it matters not one continental damn what John Kerry, Hillary Clinton et al, or anybody said. It doesn’t even matter what George W. Bush said. As the old saying goes, “Talk is cheap.” It only matters what George W. Bush did. And what he did was take this nation to war against Iraq. And on pre-meditated lies. And again, it doesn’t matter how many other people may have lied, either willingly or unwittingly. Only one person took us to war based on those lies - nobody else. Neither John Kerry nor Hillary Clinton did. George W. Bush did. And for what he did, he should be impeached.”
And on the impeachment point, Mayor Anderson is absolutely right. But because he didn’t effectively counter Sean’s polished talking point, that round went to Hannity - in my opinion.
2) In another one of Mayor Anderson’s responses, he called for redeploying our troops to “the real war on terror in Afghanistan.”
Please.
Every time I hear someone like Anderson or Speaker Pelosi say “We need to get our troops out of Iraq and re-deploy them in the real war on terror in Afghanistan,” my initial reaction is “Oh great. Take our troops out of the idiotic, GOP created, never-ending war in Iraq; and redeploy them in the equally idiotic, GOP created, never-ending war on terror.”
That’s right. For quite some time, I have said - and long term listeners to my radio show can verify – that long before I didn’t support Bush’s invasion of Iraq, I didn’t support his war on terror. The “war on terror” is another entity created and defined by the same people who brought you Iraq and Katrina. I believe it is just one more right wing grab at the fear mongering ring, in order to keep their citizens in such a state of fear, they will sanction almost anything being committed in their name; ie: the carnage and quite frankly, crimes in Iraq. It is my belief that a war on terror is as idiotic as a war on lust.
Look at it this way. George W. Bush fails America horribly on 9-11-2001. Then he turns around and declares a war on terror. And how does America respond to the man who firstly fails them and secondly declares a global war on an abstract noun?! The entire country – loyal opposition party included - immediately marries themselves to Bush and his GWOT - immediately and unconditionally - for better or for worse - no questions asked. Go figure.
And I do understand that this was right after 9-11. I acknowledge what a sacred cow 9-11 was and apparently still is. People were upset and angry. And back then, too many were too afraid of being called weak on defense - or terrorist appeasers - to even question even the concept of a war on terror, let alone its implementation. It sounded good too. It sounded strong - a “war on terror.” I mean, we have to be at war with something or somebody - after 9-11, being at war with terror sounded good. But the bottom line for me has always been - it’s a war on an abstract noun for God’s sake! Shouldn’t we at least – I don’t know - discuss it?
But that was then, and this is now. And now we have a track record of the person and people who declared this war on terror, and we see how dismal their record has been, and how flawed their judgment. So I will ask once again. Can we now have an honest debate over what I see as just one more of the Bush administration’s flawed decisions, namely, their war on terror?
In my opinion, you don’t win points in a debate by criticizing one of this administration’s failures – Iraq - only to turn around and give credibility to another one of their failures – their war on terror. Never forget both of these were created by the exact same people. That alone… should cause you to reconsider. But in order to do that, you have to recognize right wing talking points for what they are. And yes, Virginia, I believe the GOP’s “war on terror” is little more than another one of their meaningless talking points; and one that can be countered with a little logic and a generous helping of ‘track record’ sprinkled in for good measure.
I wish Mayor Anderson (along with many other otherwise honorable, patriotic Democratic legislators) knew as much about countering right wing talking points as he does the unfettered, unfiltered truth.
Together, they’re an unbeatable combination. No matter whom - or in this case, what - you’re debating.
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Comments

This entry was posted on Monday, May 7th, 2007 at 6:16 pm and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
15 Comments so far

  1. My take on the Rocky Anderson / Sean Hasn’t Any debate Friday night « Suzie-Q on May 7, 2007 8:30 pm

    […] Basham and Cornell […]

  2. Suzie-Q on May 8, 2007 7:34 am

    Doug:

    Nice post and thanks for posting it on my blog too! :)

  3. Suzie-Q on May 8, 2007 7:54 am

    P.S.

    I cannot stand Sean Hannity! Ugh!

  4. geezerpower on May 8, 2007 8:19 am

    Yep…I remember when Hillary and Kerry were parroting the WMD thing. Their problem was that they couldn’t keep their mouth shut, and repeated what they thought the people wanted to hear. The basic rule here is to never play another mans game, especially if he can change the rules. The same applies to Rocky. It’s all about playing a game that you know well, as well as carrying the book of Hoyle.

  5. Suzie-Q on May 8, 2007 12:20 pm

    Sign the petition to end the war:

    Petition

  6. Suzie-Q on May 8, 2007 4:31 pm

    Hey DOug and Lydia!

    I published an article on my blog this morning about the 35,000 troops about to be deployed and apparently it was on the AOL blog news. I want to share this with you because of some of the comments. Also, Impeachment is now at nearly 40% approval of Americans. :)

    35,000 to deploy

  7. Anonymous on May 8, 2007 5:21 pm

    Everyone was talking about Saddam’s WMD and removing him during the previous administration too. Did Bush give Clinton HIS talking points?

  8. Doug Basham on May 8, 2007 5:44 pm

    Geeeez, did you even read the article? The point is, who cares what Bill Clinton’s talking points were or who gave them to him? Or what Clinton was - and you said the key word - “talking” about? That’s all he did was talk. He didn’t act. He didn’t take this country to war against Iraq. Same with John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, etc. It doesn’t matter what they said. They didn’t take us to war against Iraq either. It doesn’t even matter what George W. Bush said. All that matters (or at least would matter if you hadn’t been so brainwashed and dumbed down by dishonest right wing talking points) is what George W. Bush did. It was Bush who invaded Iraq, not Bill, Hill, nor JK. Get it? I drew an analogy in my article. Let me draw another one here. Applying your logic, Bill Clinton is just as guilty for talking about Iraq, as George W. Bush is for invading Iraq. Does that really make any sense to you? I mean… really? Come on. Think - don’t repeat your GOP master’s talking points - think for yourself. Don’t you resent your hallowed GOP bombarding you with talking points that upon examination, just don’t make any sense, and only serve to make you look like a fool while you defend the indefensible? Doesn’t that trouble you at least a little?

  9. Kuni on May 8, 2007 6:46 pm

    What many who like to claim that the Democrats also claimed that there were WMD’s forget is the intelligence they had access to. The pre Desert Fox “Quotes” were supported by the intelligence; the post 9-11 quotes were based on the BS Bush fed Congress. After 9-11 he signed an executive order restricting the intelligence to 8 members of congress. None of the 4 Democrats on that list made any WMD claims.

    And you will NOT find any “quotes” by Democrats claiming that Saddam had WMD’s after Desert Fox till Bush restricted what Intelligence Congress could see.

    Below is what the Democrats had access to.

    [b]Pre Desert Fox[/b]

    https://www.foia.cia.gov/duelfer/Iraqs_WMD_Vol1.pdf
    [i]. . . During the summer of 1998, when UNSCOM surfaced its concern over the evidence it found that Iraq had, contrary to its declarations, weaponized VX in missile warheads . . .[/i]

    [b]Post Desert Fox[/b]

    [i] The CIA’s “Report to Congress on Acquisition of Technology Related to WMD, January through June, 1999” says: “we do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since [Operation] Desert Fox to reconstitute its WMD programs.”[/i]

    [b]What Bush let them see.[/b]

    Shortly after 9-11, Bush issued an [url=http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/bushrestrictedintel.pdf]order[/url] to the CIA, DoD, FBI, State Department, and his cabinet members that severely curtailed intelligence oversight by restricting classified information to just eight members of Congress.

  10. hterrya on May 9, 2007 1:17 am

    Doug Basham’s cogent comments made good sense to me. I bet Mayor Rocky Anderson wishes now he had Doug to coach him before he went on FAUX Noise to face Sean Hasn’t Any (I like to call him Ham-inanity).

    However, I have a more cynical approach, from watching FAUX Noise misuse the public communications channels to rig ANY debate in favor of the NeoCons. Ham-inanity has HUNDREDS of Doug Basham-calibre advisors (as many as Murdoch needs to buy) to rig the outcome in Ham-inanity’s favor. It is FAUX Noise’s playground, bought at public expense, and he who controls the playground controls the contest.

    No matter how sophistcated the progressive is who takes on FAUX Noise, that person is playing FROM BEHIND!

    It comes to me, that if a Progressive is tempted to take on FAUX Noise, the words of “War Games” (and in the hands of the FAUX Noise Warmongers, it is indeed WAR!) - “The only way to win is not to play at all!”

  11. Ian on May 9, 2007 5:31 am

    Bill Clinton maintained a constant level of low level warfare in Iraq all through the 90’s and compromised the integrity of UN inspections by using them as a cover for espionage.
    As for the debate itself, there was no debate. For Rocky Anderson this was a forum to present his case for impeachment. In response, Hannity’s presentation in supposed defense of US policy in Iraq and counter to the call for impeachment was predictably shallow, dishonest, and offensive.

  12. Cole... on May 9, 2007 10:56 am

    Doug’s “Take…” is perfect!
    But, the key is ‘debate’-which he pointed out never happened-which should be pointed out failed at all key points and started with the failed debates in the 2000 election. Lehrer put out nonprobing puffball quetions and swooned at the ‘no difference’ between you two guys, Gore and Bush.
    And those debates were also scored to the guy on the ‘right’ who exceeded low expectations.

    Kerry, Hillary and all saw the ‘work up to the war’ as a piece of cake and they wanted their fair slice and you don’t get that slice by saying “no thanks let’s talk about it”. Years later their faces are still smeared with residual cake and there is nothing to wash it off. Pehaps they can use bush’s blood smeared shorts, huh?

  13. rivernet on May 9, 2007 8:08 pm

    Ok now that I know it works, I’ll add my 2 cents. I’ve heard the critisism that Kerry and Hilary parroted the Bush party line. And it’s true, they did. Of course those who didn’t are no longer in public service. For a politican, that’s no small point. You have to stay at the party if you’re going to have any fun. The fact is, and I know this is true because I lived through it as did you: Following 911, the nation, even large parts of the world, turned to one man and one man only to make sense of it for us. That person, Dubya not only set the mood after 911, he set the very oxygeon level in the world. He made the world turn. What he said set the tone in a way that I’ve never before seen in my life and I’ve been around for more then a few years. Did every relevant politican of the day sign on? Yes they did, but then again, think back. Did they really have a choice?

    What others did in response to 911 isn’t really the question. The question is, what did others do, with ambitions of their own, in response to Bush’s response to 911.

    Good God, when the ship is foundering or precieved to be foundering you follow the captians lead. You either bail water or jump overboard. Hilary, Kerry and a lot of others bailed, and by doing that they stayed aboard. I know it’s a lousey analogy, but it’s the best I can do on short notice, especially considering that probably not more than one or two people will read this far down in the comments section.

    No Hannity’s comparisson is absurd. People need to point that out. At that critical time, only one person set the tone, established the perceptions etc. True, I never supported the idea. I was never afraid that Saddam was going to get me. But then again, I wasn’t a very big fish trying to survive in a very turbulant sea at that time. Hell I’m barely a minnow, not even worth the effort to clamp down on. I could afford the luxury of being honest with myself and those in my immediate circle about how abusrd and stupid I thought the war was. How it was an obvious bait and switch operation.

    The real question is, the next time something like this happens, who do you want in that singular position of responsibility, a reasoned intelligent politican or a stupid venal thug. You vote Democrat, maybe you get the former. You keep voiting Rethugican, chances are you get the thug.

  14. Ian on May 10, 2007 11:33 am

    “Applying your flawed logic, I would be just as guilty for saying I wished someone were dead, as I would be if I actually killed them.”

    Henry II spent the rest of his life with regret at having said “Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?” Then again I doubt he was much of a progressive.

    Excuse the ad hominem but I was channelling Hannity’s possible response.

  15. rivernet on May 11, 2007 8:28 pm

    Ian,
    No problem, I think you channeled Hannity to a tee. The response made no sense, was not related in any relevant way to anything I said and didn’t answer the question. You nailed it.

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